According to a report by Beijing Youth Daily on the 21st, in November 2018, a pair of gene-edited twin girls named Lulu and Nana were born healthy in China.According to reports, one of the twins' genes has been modified so that they can naturally resist AIDS after birth, and this is the world's first gene-edited baby to be immune to AIDS.The man behind these gene-edited babies is He Jiankui, an associate professor at Southern University of Science and Technology in Shenzhen.
Once the news was announced, it caused a huge shock, and He Jiankui's behavior was strongly condemned by scientists.Gene editing has also triggered discussions and controversies on human ethics and life safety issues such as whether artificial humans are allowed and whether the future will be reduced to a society where supermen rule ordinary people.
However, nearly two months have passed since the incident, and apart from previous media reports that the health department has intervened in the investigation, no progress has been disclosed.A few days ago, a reporter from Beijing Youth Daily interviewed Shao Feng, an industry insider in the field of life science research and an academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, in an attempt to popularize the significance of the incident and the factors behind it.
Previously, Shao Feng had spoken out about the gene editing incident, believing that the technology had no scientific innovation, only a bottomless breakthrough in ethics and morality. There was an urgent need for a clear legal and ethical boundary, and he hoped that relevant departments would legislate this.
The investigation factors behind the gene editing incident are complex
Beiqing Daily: What is the follow-up progress of the gene editing incident?Why does the public feel that nothing has happened?
Shao Feng: As far as I know, it is still under investigation.The final processing results will be released by the health administrative department according to the procedure.
Beiqing Daily: Why is this matter so difficult to deal with?
Shao Feng: Because the investigation process is not so easy.First of all, He Jiankui is an associate professor at SUSTech, so how did the school allow him to carry out this gene editing experiment?After all, he is staffed by a school. Where did the funds come from?Did the review committees at all levels of the school know about this?Furthermore, he has to cooperate with the hospital, because he himself cannot perform artificial insemination.He can do gene editing, but he can't take sperm and eggs from people, so he must have a doctor to do it with him.So which hospital or hospitals are involved?Then the hospital also has an ethics committee, how did it pass the review?These doubts have not yet been clarified, and a responsible account needs to be given to the public after a solid investigation.
Beiqing Daily: Even if the results of the investigation come out, there is no legal basis for this aspect of ethics. What kind of results can there be?
Shao Feng: No matter what legal basis is used in the end, it must be investigated first. The causes and consequences of this matter must be investigated clearly, involving all aspects, including school and hospital participants, students, and local supervisors, including volunteers.All must be investigated.You can only figure it out first, and then decide what to do.The Health and Family Planning Commission also has regulations for acts such as gene editing. For example, if a person violates this regulation, the university should expel the person.But it is definitely not appropriate to fire many cases before the investigation is clear.
Beiqing Daily: In addition to expulsion, will there be any more serious consequences?
Shao Feng: Then you have to look at whether there are other links in the process, and you can find the corresponding legal basis, because there is no legal basis for this matter itself, but for example, if gene editing is used for fertilized eggs, will it ultimately cause personal harm?, for example, for those two girls, have their genes been artificially destroyed, and have the people involved committed the crime of intentional injury?There are legal provisions that can be dealt with accordingly, but it has not yet been appraised, and I don’t know if it can be said so?This requires judicial interpretation and analysis by legal experts.
The best way to deal with it is to never let the two children know
Beiqing Daily: The question now is, as a gene editor, two children have been born, what should I do in the future?
Shao Feng: This is very, very difficult to handle.Now the industry is also discussing whether it is necessary to pay a sum of money to let the parents of these two children go to a place that no one knows and live again, and then the department will track them, just like installing GPS positioning.In fact, the biggest challenge here is, can these two girls get married in the future?If you get married and have children, it will be passed on.
Beiqing Daily: Do you think they are allowed to get married?
Shao Feng: There is no answer to this.
Beiqing Daily: What do you think is the best way to deal with it?
Shao Feng: If I want to deal with this matter, I will never tell them that they have been genetically edited, and allow them to live like normal people.I think this is the most appropriate and best choice.
This single case is not enough to affect the human gene pool
Beiqing Daily: As an authoritative expert in the industry, what is your biggest worry about this matter?
Shao Feng: We are mainly worried about two safety issues. One is that these two children may be unhealthy in the future, but we normal people will also have health problems, so if they are unhealthy, we have to face it by ourselves.There is also a safety issue, which is what we call the impact on human populations. However, this individual case only has a small impact on the overall situation. A small drop of water is not enough to change the entire pool.
Beiqing Daily: Why is it said that it is not enough to change the entire human gene pool?
Shao Feng: Because this single case is not enough to have an impact on such a large population. This small point cannot have a large-scale impact on the population.The next generation may only have one child or two children. It is just the intergenerational influence of genes and can only be passed down. Because it is not an infectious disease, this one point will not affect the genes of the entire population.Influence.If you put it into the entire gene pool, it will be diluted immediately.
Beiqing Daily: So where is the biggest harm?
Shao Feng: Once the door to gene editing is opened, humanity will soon be finished.We know that there are more than 20,000 genes in the human body, and everything is determined by these genes. This is the so-called concept of DNA. With current biotechnology, you can change it (gene) at will. You can change it to whatever you want.What.It should be said that this is the most revolutionary technology in biological sciences in the past two to three decades.Any species can be modified. For example, if you want a dog to glow green, you can also make it have as many arms as you want. You can do this at will.This technology is very powerful.But what is very scary is that people with a little training can do it in a laboratory.The threshold for this technology is extremely low. A person who masters this technology can spend tens of thousands of yuan to buy some equipment.
Beiqing Daily: But there are already medical applications of gene editing abroad, so what is the situation?
Shao Feng: Humans have two types of cells, one is somatic cells and the other is germ cells.Simply put, except for sperm and eggs, they are all body cells.Some people abroad are using gene editing technology to treat diseases, targeting somatic cells.For example, some people are blind due to a mutation in a certain gene. Using this technology to edit the cells in the eyes, some blind people may be able to restore their vision.Another example is that what is being done the most now is muscle atrophy, restoring bad genes in stem cells so that muscles will not atrophy. This is something that is being promoted abroad.However, it is strictly forbidden to use this technology in sperm and eggs abroad, which means that it cannot be done in reproductive cells.Because editing in somatic cells, if it is not successful, it may lead to muscle atrophy, which may result in the loss of an arm at most.But if it is done in sperm and eggs, the impact will be passed down from generation to generation.Why is He Jiankui's case so scary? Because he did gene editing in germ cells.
Beiqing Daily: You just mentioned that gene editing technology is actually very easy to operate, and maybe a graduate student can do it.Is anyone still doing this now?
Shao Feng: It is not easy for people to do this in Beijing. In universities such as Peking University and Tsinghua University, the ethics committees absolutely do not allow such behavior.Just like in our research institute, if we know you do this, you will be expelled immediately.In fact, universities and hospitals have ethics committees. It is said that this incident happened in a private hospital. If it was in a regular public hospital, the ethics committee would definitely not be able to pass it.Now it can only be said that there is no punishmentThere are relevant regulations, but there are industry codes of conduct.Just like how we create super bacteria in our laboratory, it would be very easy to create a super virus, which would be extremely lethal.However, the scientific research community and the medical community all have regulations and regulations, which does not mean that you can make any virus you want.Every research unit has an ethics committee, and this ethics committee will not let you do these things.
Ethics committee is a double-edged sword
Beiqing Daily: How big a role can the ethics committee play in this type of experiment?
Shao Feng: This is a problem, and it is also an area where our scientific research and cultural system is not sound enough.Ethics committees in Western countries have great power and are very strict.To what extent is it strict? For example, if you use white mice for experiments, you must clearly know how many mice to use, when to use them, what kind of dissection to do, and what kind of experiments to do.It must be clearly written and handed over to the ethics committee. Only after the ethics committee approves can it be done, otherwise the school can expel you. This is so strict that even if the procedure is approved this time, the next time you do the experiment, replace the white mouse with a black one.If you are a rat, you will have to go through the ethics process again, and any changes will require re-approval.
Beiqing Daily: What is our country like?
Shao Feng: This is what we are doing now. Each of our schools also has ethics committees, and so do hospitals.To conduct an experiment, we also need to conduct an ethical approval process. Our experiments do not involve humans, but animals are used for experiments, so ethics are actually not as strict as in the West.
Beiqing Daily: What if the censorship is tightened?Can gene editing be avoided by demanding the highest standards?
Shao Feng: This thing is actually a double-edged sword. Some unnecessary strict regulations have an impact on research.We are now building a science and technology innovation center, and it is very important to improve the level of scientific research.For example, I know that Singapore's regulations on mouse experiments are that no experiment can eventually lead to the death of mice. The death of mice must be artificially accelerated, but it cannot be directly caused by experiments.But our country does not have this standard. The mice died in the laboratory, because sometimes it is necessary to see how many mice will die after taking this medicine.But Singapore can't do that. It can only artificially promote the death of mice when they are about to die.This is their code of ethics.
Beiqing Daily: What is the difference?Is it a matter of ethical definition?
Shao Feng: This is their ethical definition, but such regulations also cause certain troubles for scientific researchers.But there are such ethical regulations, and they have precepts.So why are few foreign labs conducting experiments on primates such as orangutans and monkeys? Because primates are the closest to humans, the ethical norms involved are higher, and you are restricted from doing them.
Gene editing cannot be done without established rules
Beiqing Daily: In the absence of standardized regulations, if gene editing is performed on somatic cells, would it be harmful?
Shao Feng: This is not like the research and development of new drugs.For example, if we want to develop a cold medicine, this set of procedures is very mature and you have to review it step by step.Now gene editing of somatic cells is possible in some western countries, but the domestic gene therapy process has not yet formed a set of norms. It is cell therapy, and such technological means are not like drugs. For example, the Drug Administration has approved drugsIf it is safe, our doctor can take the medicine.But it’s hard to say whether gene therapy will be effective.As a new thing, it is necessary to establish a whole set of procedures, and professional people are also needed to cooperate in this matter. To put it bluntly, because it is a new thing, many people do not know how to do it properly.In other words, there are not enough professional people who can set rules for this matter.
Beiqing Daily: What is your suggestion?
Shao Feng: Legislation without ethics will definitely not work.It is hoped that He Jiankui’s gene-edited babies will promote life safety legislation in China.We have also written relevant reports on ethical legislation for life medicine.Because once this door is opened, it will be very scary.
Character introduction
Shao Feng, academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences and deputy academic director of the Beijing Institute of Life Sciences.The team led by Shao Feng leads the world in the study of pathogenic bacteria invasion and human defense mechanism, and has frequently appeared in the three top international journals of natural science and cells.In 2016, Shao Feng wrote an open letter to the president of Hebei University of Science and Technology regarding the questioning of Han Chunyu's gene editing technology research, suggesting that Hebei University of Science and Technology initiate an investigation in accordance with international practice.
